Wallace: To get rich is glorious. That declaration by Chinese leaders to their people

surprises many in the capitalist world. What does that have to do with communism?

Deng: We went through the "cultural revolution". During the "cultural revolution" there

was a view that poor communism was preferable to rich capitalism. After I resumed

office in the central leadership in 1974 and 1975, 1 criticized that view. Because I did so,

I was brought down again. Of course, there were other reasons too. I said to them that

there was no such thing as poor communism. According to Marxism, communist society

is based on material abundance. Only when there is material abundance can the principle

of a communist society - that is, "from each according to his ability, to each according

to his needs" - be applied. Socialism is the first stage of communism. Of course, it covers

a very long historical period. The main task in the socialist stage is to develop the

productive forces, keep increasing the material wealth of society, steadily improve the

life of the people and create material conditions for the advent of a communist society.

There can be no communism with pauperism, or socialism with pauperism. So to get rich

is no sin. However, what we mean by getting rich is different from what you mean.

Wealth in a socialist society belongs to the people. To get rich in a socialist society

means prosperity for the entire people. The principles of socialism are: first, development

of production and second, common prosperity. We permit some people and some regions

to become prosperous first, for the purpose of achieving common prosperity faster. That

is why our policy will not lead to polarization, to a situation where the rich get richer

while the poor get poorer. To be frank, we shall not permit the emergence of a new

bourgeoisie.

Wallace: Yes, but the farmers, for instance, that I saw down in the Pearl River estuary -

they have motorcycles, they have colour television sets, they are building homes. You

take measures to encourage them to grow rich. They only have to give a certain amount

to the state and may keep the rest for themselves. And in a sense, that is almost like our

system in the United States; they give a certain amount to the state in taxes and keep the

rest for themselves.

Deng: In our system the public sector is the major sector of the economy, but there are

also others. Even the much talked-about "ten-thousand-yuan households" in the

countryside only have an annual income of some US$2,000 or 3,000. Would you call that

rich? How many households like that are there? Compared with the developed countries,

China still has a very low per capita national income.

Wallace: You spoke of the "cultural revolution" just now, Chairman Deng. What

happened to you and your family during the "cultural revolution"?

Deng: That episode looks bad, but in the final analysis, it was also a good thing. Because

it set people thinking and helped to identify our failings. Chairman Mao often said that

bad things could be turned into good things. If we draw the right lessons from the

"cultural revolution", we can institute measures of reform to change the face of China

politically and economically. Thus bad things can be turned into good things. It is

because we reviewed our experience and drew the lessons of the "cultural revolution"

that in the late 1970s and early 1980s we were able to formulate the policies that are now

in force.